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So in dabbling with various cyberpunk and sci-fi systems, there is always a concern as to whether magic is used or not.

There are allot of very interesting implementations ranging from direct copies of the popular D&D ideology of magic, (ie magic is mysterious, old guys in pointy hats spend their lives learning it, and you cant mix metal/technology with it!).

To a blend of technology and magic (ie shadowrun).

I always felt the concept used in the popular MMO Anarchy Online was an facinating concept. The idea of free roaming particles (nanites) that saturate the air allowing anyone to manipulate them to create magic-like effects.

Though I do find the idea of a nanite saturated atmosphere a bit harsh.

So, what about the idea of magic being a manipulation of space-time? Any quantum physics fans out there wanna pitch in?
I've been writing to this effect that magic is actually a manipulation of space-time creating a harmonic that reacts with the strings of our reality to create effects. This would look like magic to less advanced cilvilzations...and less advanced civilizations that had magic, simply didn't understand its full nature and were basically going through the motions to create known effects but didn't understand the "how" or "why".

What say you?

Before you complain about nanite atmosphere too much, look into the concept of . BESM Centauri Knights featured smart matter and thought control there of - one of the character options was "fog witch". There were also disassembler pods that could tear apart matter and turn just about anything into a killer robot in a few hours. It was all taking place on a dead world where the former inhabitants relied on this sort of tech, and were killed off in a civil war over brain-uploading. Now that humans have arrived, there is a fight over restoring the alien ecosystem, transforming, and who gets the remaining artifacts.

I'm not sure if I could latch on to string theory and manipulating energy personally. However, I could see a game that went the route of Twain's "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" combined with Vernor Vinge's "A Fire Upon the Deep". A spaceship crashes, and now you're amongst the populace. Spells are discrete computer programs or smart matter manipulations, but still impressive. A tool that switches between flashlight and laser might be quite the shock. The ability to scan brain engrams for lying could provoke the reputation as an oracle, a database on farming and knowing about fertilizer could be quite powerful.

At some point I started work on a fantasy cyberpunk game - castles and swords with information technology control and characters as rebels against the system. Kingdoms had Babbage machines (analog computers) and magic surveillance and communication methods. Magic was rather akin to what is seen in Adventurer - combine points to get an effect, with the twist that everything was kind of computer related. (Ie your Rapidly Accessible Magic (RAM) attribute determined how quickly you could acquire magic points from the Local Aura Nexus - LAN) It never got finished because I got really bogged down in the combat department - I was trying to balance quick vs heavy attacks, and the notion of blunt vs armor or edged vs shield, as part of the kingdoms power-base is controlling iron production/transport so rebels end up with a lot of improvised maces. (An attempt at moving away from the cliche of everyone has a sword.) Of course in this approach, its tech allowed by magic, the opposite of what you're looking for.

I agree that science can be seen as magic in a different hat, I think Sci Fi is normally comes with some kind of justification. To retain suspension of disbelief, I certainly need it. We don't really need justification in fantasy, if all the mountains are upside down and floating then it's ok because fantasy demands a higher level of disbelief. If you're playing hard Sci Fi, then my players might want to know how or why.

That's where the split is: suspension of disbelief and justification.

I use high level of disbelief when it comes to discussions about hacking Gaia...for example

The fog witch is a very interesting concept for an existing technology that the natives don't understand. Makes perfect sense to me.

I suppose the manner to which "magic" is created in a sci-fi setting isn't as important as to the "why" or "how". As stated by Rob, you don't need to justify crazy stuff in fantasy...the audience is looking for it they want to be surprised or amazed.

But when you conceive sci-fi you want your imagination to be engaged in a manner thats different.

You look at fantasy and see harry potter create some wierd effects by shaking a stick and we justify it as magic...yep that happens with magic!

You look at sci-fi and see ships zooming through space and your like "wow, thats cool...but ships dont make noise in space!", you always try to rationalize sci-fi....you don't rationalize fantasy.

So I guess the delivery method isn't important. But the creative ideas that dazzle the imagination and pose the question "Hrmm...is that possible?" is the role of sci-fi.

As I said on the other thread: My personal understanding of the division [between SF & Fantasy] is that science fiction tries to look at the ramifications, fantasy does not. Isaac Asimov's "I Robot" collection is the archetype of SF in my mind; If we have sentient robots, what sort of safeguards do we implement, and how do we diagnose problems with them? Meanwhile, "The Lord of the Rings" doesn't consider how flying servants would change the nature of medieval warfare and reconnaissance. (Albeit, that isn't the focus of the story, but that sort of mapping capacity would be a big deal)

Now the interesting question is, if we could create quantum magic, how would it change us? On one hand, its unlikely to change our basic competitive/petty nature and probably lead to some big fights (in court or otherwise) about who gets to use it an how. On the other hand, if it really can rewrite our nature and control people there are going to be outright wars over what that ideal person should be...

Speaking of magic, I saw an interesting TED talk the other day about someone claiming to be a "cybernetic anthropologist." They pointed out that our computers are like the magic bags of "Mary Poppins" or "Felix the Cat". Think of how many thousand pages of documents you've got right now, or the hundreds of CDs and volumes of encyclopedias, and doctor's advice. Many people now feel like a piece of their body is missing when it doesn't work.

Obviously, we're going to have to invoke Clarke's third law at some point. And since most people don't know how to maintain a server mainframe, we really do have the trappings of a techno-monk social class starting. Apparently, the language of magic is html, not latin.

I don't know why "what is magic?" is a big, or even interesting, question in RPGs.

Either we discover new causal laws or we learn new ways to enter into causal interactions with things. It doesn't even seem terribly mystical to me.

What am I missing? Do your players want to know how magic works? There are just brute facts. Why do electrons have a charge of -1?

UH OH! SOMEONE HAS UNLEASHED THE PHILOSOPHER!

By the way, Rob. I just finished up my (successful) dissertation defense.

Okay, I've had more time. I've read through the posts.

Given that magic is (I hope we can safely say) bunk, trying to explain how magic works is best done in a figurative sense. At some point in any literal explanation something magic-y is going to have to be introduced.

In other words, no magic in(to the explanation), no magic out (of the explanation).

Congrats Dr. T-Boy. There's at least two of us on the forum now. Welcome to the world of overqualified for everything.