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Teleportation

PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:12 pm
by Wannabe writer
Inspiration for this comes from the latest foray by J.J Abrhams into the star trek universe. In it the villain was able to teleport (at one stage) from Earth to another planet in another Galaxy (Kronos I believe). Lets extrapolate this issue and for examples sake imply we have the technology to teleport people anywhere anytime. Where would military targets be then? Without a counter Maguffin how do we go forward with things like security and its opposite crime? I would love to hear you're responses.

Re: Teleportation

PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:10 am
by Onix


Kronos is in the Milky Way, but point taken, it's very very far away. I'm also compelled to mention that I really hate JJ Abrams treatment of Trek (and Transformers). In one movie they can't yet teleport more than a short distance and the next you have instant interstellar teleportation. I could rant for an hour on how insanely bad the new movies are but I won't.

In the Trek universe there are counter Maguffins, like magnetic shielding and impossibly good sensors. Both of which could eliminate or greatly reduce the potential hazard.

But what if we had teleportation and no counter technology? Things would be bad even if teleportation was limited to this planet. You would have the capacity to teleport into a head of state's bedroom and kill them in their sleep. Teleport out and who could track down the killer? Kidnapping would be child's play.

Now what about another planet? I could teleport away your atmosphere.* I could teleport away the structural supports in your biggest buildings (or any of your buildings) and cultural icons. Teleporters would have to be as carefully guarded as nuclear technology.

*Really, the existence of a FTL star ship of any kind would be very bad for any planets you wanted to attack. You could do amazingly horrible things just by dropping rocks out the window at a planet. If I have artificial gravity, I could hoover up your atmosphere.

Re: Teleportation

PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:01 pm
by Chainsaw Aardvark
I am afraid of teleporters:

There is also an interesting case of what if the machine doesn't destroy the original automatically? Do you end up with a bunch of quantum clones or do you have a person responsible for liquidating the excess?

If you have a machine capable of replicating humans or transporting them around so easily, what prevents you from moving other materials or making replicators? In theory you could solve all problems with scarcity of food or materials by just warping them around. At such a point, what things would you want to steal? What is valuable dynamically shifts to things that can't be replicated. Diamonds can just be vacuumed out of a planet by targeting carbon deposits, but you can't make more front row seats for a concert.

What other limits are there on this technology? Could I target individual isotopes and use it to gather materials for a hydrogen bomb? Is there some percentage chance of failure due to natural events (beam passes a black hole and gets bent, targeting not as accurate as you thing, etc) If this requires a pretty heavy duty power soucre (the anti-matter reactor of a ship) then this is by default limited to those who own the ships/reactors.

Good stories tend not to come from the object of unlimited power, but from exploring the limits of the power.

Re: Teleportation

PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:22 pm
by Anastylos
Teleporting would be used to eleminate the machines enabling others to teleport. Whoever does that first wins.
You could teleport water into the air and let it fall on a turbine to generate enough erergy to teleport more water. You could copy an atomic bomb infinite times anywhere you want (if it is Star Trek). Teleporting is stupid if it is not limited.

Re: Teleportation

PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:33 pm
by Wannabe writer

Re: Teleportation

PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:22 pm
by Onix
In Trek, a person's atoms are disassembled, put into a pattern buffer (whatever that means), and then. . . well then it gets murky. Some accounts say that the atoms are sent down to the planet, and then reassembled. Some say that local atoms are assembled and that the pattern is transferred.

In Wrath of Kahn, it's shown that the person(s) being transported are actually conscious during the transport process and can actually communicate with each other while en-route. As such, there's a continuation of consciousness instead of an original being torn apart and then a clone being created on the other end. In Trek there's something of a "soul" being transferred. The literature says that although a transporter could be used to duplicate a person, the duplicates instantly die. This position is just an artificial limit placed on the technology to prevent the story from going in a direction they didn't want to go. There's never any solid explanation.

But if you're afraid of teleporting, let me ask you this. Didn't the person you were yesterday, lay down and die at the end of the day, only to be replaced by the slightly different person you are today?

Re: Teleportation

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:24 am
by Chainsaw Aardvark
Although to some extent your body is subject to the "Ship of Theses" paradox (rate of replacement is between about 30-60 days for blood cells, less than that for your stomach, and around seven years for the entirety of skin or some other bits), the outlyer is the brain.

In some animals they can regenerate nerve tissue, but in complex ones, that ability has been turned off to avoid errors in reconstruction. On a similar note we don't have endlessly replacing teeth as sharks do, because that would conflict with the specific placement of the specialized teeth that make us omnivores.

As such, I still come down on continuity of biological consciousness. Though arguably even non biological situations - if you copy an AI program, from that point on, they have different experiences and grow apart - like identical twins separated at birth.

Skipping past the attempts to murder me in the most esoteric fashion possible, I still want to know how ubiquitous is this apparatus - is it limited to starships, or just a little thing attached to your wrist? What kind of mechanism do you need to target something and choose a destination? Camouflage, decoys, and constant movement could keep certain things safe, and others could be hidden in deep chambers with many partitions, which means the chance of accidentally warping into a wall is uncomfortably high.

Looking at it another way - "a teleportor equipped society is a polite society" - its not wise to make enemies of people who can just zap you into the sun or make thugs appear in your bedroom at any time. A little bit of Mutually Assured Destruction goes a long way.

Re: Teleportation

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:21 am
by Onix

Re: Teleportation

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:08 pm
by Anastylos
Asking if I am the identical person I was yesterday is like asking if a room vanishes if you close the door. I don't think it is reasonable to belive. You could question realisty itself and thats seems to be not helpful.

Re: Teleportation

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:13 pm
by Onix
Ah, but isn't that the question when it comes to teleportation? Are you the same consciousness at the end of the process, or simply a copy? The copy would certainly think it's the original. But don't we all when we wake up from sleep? It's a question of norms. It's normal to sleep. It's not normal to teleport. If people suddenly discovered sleep and it was a great new way to extend your mind, wouldn't people worry about the interruption of consciousness?

In a hundred or maybe a thousand years after teleportation is invented, would anyone worry about it anymore? People might be reluctant on their first few teleports, but after you have a memory of a dozen teleports in your brain, would you even question it anymore?

And I just looked at the link CA posted. It makes the exact same argument that I'm making but in story form.