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Review Response: The Hour Between And Dog And Wolf

PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:11 pm
by hardcoremoose

PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:44 pm
by PlotDevice

PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:46 pm
by Harlequin
Cool. The revisions help with most of my mechanical concerns, yeah. There's an interesting dynamic here in the raising of the La Bête score if you use it entirely... again reminiscent of MLwM, I suppose. I like this version. I also like how much less likely it is to lower Companions' scores.

Yikes, you've pumped the Beast, haven't you? One suggestion - rather than adding ten dice, perhaps you might simply steal the active player's (remaining) La Bête dice, and take and roll everyone else's La Bête as well. Makes it scale with group size, but that's OK, their ability to respond en masse, which is the only way they have a hope in France of winning, scales likewise. Also note that the Beast is no longer nastier vs. companions with a high trust in their wolves; the only reason they're at more risk is simply because players will be wanting to bring them in at least once per round to reduce the Battues. I liked that increase in risk to them, and would like to see it brought back in.

With the Beast this much increased, I think you need to revisit the rules for introducing more wolves into the scene. As it stands, if I'm the last player to go in the round (and everyone else took their turns as normal), introducing a high-point Companion is madness, because there'll be nothing we can do if you decide to invoke the Beast.

As a thought: maybe instead of each wolf only being able to show up once per round, give multiple appearances a cost. For each time above the first that your wolf was in a scene this round, increase your La Bête by one. (Henri, do you not zink zere are beaucoup de loups zis spring?) Interestingly, this might imply that you can "rest up" by making zero appearances in scenes during a round, and drop one La Bête die, possibly down to the starting minimum of three; or soften that to rolling one La Bête die, and if it's a 1-2 or 1-3 then you get to remove it from your pool. This way of handling multiple appearances makes invocation of the Beast a much less certain outcome... but if you go with "the Beast rolls all your La Bête" then you've each given it another die, the moment you jump in, as well as making the Battues worse.

I also have this notion that the Beast might appear anytime the GM rolls three sixes, rather than once per session... talk about unpredictable horror. Just a thought, it's yours if you want it.

The rules for killing NPCs look good; I like the "dice speak for themselves" Meatbot Massacre approach.

The dismissing a Companion thing still bugs me, again because you can (instead of using this rule) just not call them into scenes; the GM can't override that, there's no way he can introduce a Companion into play. Not being able to mention them again is very pretty... but right now it's against the player's best interests to do so, which is generally not good design. If you were to use the not-introduce-your-wolf La Bête reduction thing I suggested above, then I'd retract my opposition to this rule, simply because you'd no longer be paying an additional price over and above the removal of their Companion score.

Overall, I think that if you want to make the true focus of the game be on the villagers, then you want to promote more scenes with the villagers sans (obvious) wolves or Beast. The "sit this one out" rule would help some, and you might want to also give players who choose this option some more narrative guidance over the non-wolfy scene. Allowing "wolf paces along making sure things go the way he wants and jumping in only if required" wouldn't be hard from a rules point of view - make it clear that the five dice are the player's side of the argument, as in PTA, not the wolf's stats. Can't get La Bête unless your wolf puts in an appearance, of course. In fact it strikes me that La Bête would work against your Companions in conflict, except where you step in, which would put yet another edge on that sword. (Nonwolf scene: GM gets the La Bête dice. Introduce your wolf: GM loses them, you get them.)

Also your post here makes me wonder if you don't want an endgame mechanic after all... for the Companions. Might want to give that some thought. You already have the seeds of it, in the "dismiss a companion" rule... that could be the nugget of something very interesting.

- Eric

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:31 am
by hardcoremoose
Evan,

Your suggestion merits serious thought. I'd write more, but I'm not sure where I'm coming down on this yet. It's inspirational though.


Eric,

You have a pretty intuitive feel for what I want. I do wish I could distinguish this from MLwM somehow, but it is what it is, and I can't deny just how powerful the relationship mechanics are in that game.

Yeah, I really boosted the beast. The idea was to force the other wolves into the scene, to make them decide whether to help a friend and suffer a really rough Battue, or to let the friend lose one or more valuable companions. Even so, I'm not totally satisifed with what I have...it doesn't feel intuitive. Although you suggested this differently, I kind of like the idea that The Beast should get to roll all of the La Bete dice belonging to all of the wolves, except for those who are present in the scene (should I get rid of the rule that says wolves can't use La Bete against The Beast? That would bring back that "higher companions = greater vulnerability", which I agree is a fun aspect of companions).

The above rules tweak does not solve the one big problem The Beast presents, which is that the player that goes last in a round is at its mercy. In fact, it only makes that problem even more of a problem. How can I fix this? What if I made it a rule that each companion on the list can only be featured in a scene once per round? The players going first in the round can load up their scenes with the better companions (should you be able to have more than one companion in a scene? as it stands now, you can), thus encouraging the GM to use The Beast earlier in the round. What's more, this might encourage late-going players to work stories around less-used companions.

One problem I could see, though, is the player going first in the round might say to the GM: "I want a scene with all of the companions. That's an abuse I would like to prevent.

I probably won't allow the wolves to show up in multiple scenes per round, but I could see coming up with something that rewards them for skipping a round. For instance, I might enjoy a rule where a wolf is freed from a single Battue (and his share of the La Bete dice wouldn't get rolled), so long as he abstained from entering into his called-for scene (although companions in that scene would still count towards the total when checking for the Battue). Essentially, the player would be giving the GM a chance to narrate a cut-scene uninterrupted, in exchange for a reprieve from the Battue. Or similarly, I could see a player begging out of his scene for a round and instead "healing" a point of Hardship.

On a slightly different note, I'd also like for the players to have a chance to narrate cut-scenes - that is, a scene involving companions or NPCs of their choosing, without GM interference and without featuring their wolf. To draw a comparison again to MLwM, it would be like the opposite of The Horror Revealed; a chance for the player to showcase his favorite NPCs without fear of having them abused (and still gain the benefit for having featured a companion in the scene). Obviously, this would take the place of a player's normal scene within the round (it still yields all the usual benefits), but what specific event or series of events would this be a reward for?

Maybe the GM is only allowed to interfere in a certain number of the scenes per round? Or maybe I lift a page from PTa and give the GM a limited number of dice per round to influence scenes - he can choose to spread them out, or focus them in lumps - and scenes he chooses not to mess with go to the player (but without the normal opportunities conflicts provide - namely improving your relationships and modifying your La Bete score)? This is just brainstorming...what other options are there?

Finally, I gotta' say that you almost have me convinced about the "saying goodbye to your companions" rule. I really like the idea of a player doing something out of pure emotion rather than any mechanical benefit, but you're right - currently there's not much reason for a player to do so, when they can just as easily choose to leave the companion out of scenes and accomplish the same effect (with none of the drawbacks). In truth, there is one reason to "say goodbye"; doing so prevents the other players from using and potentially endangering that companion. Is that enough? How else could I reward this behavior? Remove the wolf and his La Bete from the next Battue but allow the companion to count one last time? Cancel the effects of one Battue? I keep coming back to the same stuff...there must be other, more subtle, reward mechanics I can put to use.

In any event, the "goodbye" rule is staying in one form or another. It is supposed to represent "endgame" for the companions...a chance for the player to wrap up the story they're telling (maybe even a little prematurely) about that character and move on. It's the idea that the whole game was predicated on, so naturally enough, it's the one that needs the most massaging.

Sheesh, this is a lot of writing for a game that I think is mostly ready to go. It's the details that will make or break you, I suppose.

- Scott[/list]

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:00 pm
by Harlequin

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 1:25 pm
by hardcoremoose
Eric,

Your "sacred cow" advice is well-taken. That's not a promise, but I'm mulling it over.

In fact I'm mulling everything over right now. You offered many wild suggestions, and while I'm happy with the basic structure of the game, I'm not prepared to dismiss anything out of hand either. I especially like the way you broke the conflict resolution out into lists...that's a helpful tool for visualizing.

As far as the different types of wolves you can play, it's interesting to note that in one draft the wolves had several attributes, each modified by things like pelage, age (yes, you could play a wolf pup), gender, size, etc. Kind of simmy actually. Obviously that wasn't going to work, but I still like the idea of being able to differentiate along these lines.

I'm going back to thinking now. Please, brainstorm in my absence.

- Scott

P.S. Even though I've deliberately avoided reading other entries while actively working on my own game, I'm taking a look at Last Supper now. My critiquing skills are terrible, but I should at least try to give some feedback.