Initiative - Important?

[Kinslayer]

Most of my reasoning behind initiative is spot-on with Rob's.

Asking everyone to roll for initiative is a great and subtle way of telling the players to pick up their dice, because this is the part where their characters are going to die. There are times when I--or a player--want to initiate an attack without the Final Fantasy screen flash. The (sort of) mechanic used in this instance is surprise. If the target had no way to know--for example--that a crossbow bolt was going to come shooting in the window while he was on the toilet, then he cannot defend against it. Just roll for the attack alone, without initiative or other rolls being involved.

Midian's initiative system determines when someone acts, and how often. Actions are resolved right then. This speeds up both the resolution time as well as sometimes adding the tactical decision of act vs. wait. Randomness to the initiative rolls--often determined every round--add to the general chaos of battle. This keeps the players on their toes. They aren't as likely to wander out of the room as they would be if they know I always have six other players to handle between their actions. This also helps keep the outcome of the battle itself uncertain. Everything a player-character can do in Midian's combat engine only pushes odds in their favour; nothing guarantees success. Just entering combat means your other means of resolving the situation have failed, and now your life is in jeopardy. Keeping things hectic and a bit crazy reinforces the notion that you should try to find other ways to resolve conflict first.

Combat--like chess--is often won by whomever makes the next-to-last mistake. Going earlier, and more often, than your foe can rob him of the opportunity to correct a prior error, or to capitalise on one you made. Actions affect other actions, so initiative in Midian fits a more classic military definition than simply being who rolls dice first. That is, striking your foe impairs his actions against you, hinders his defences against your subsequent attacks, and reduces his next initiative roll which further impedes him. In other words, it is important to gain and retain the initiative in battle, especially if one wants to press the attack.

To add to tactical decisions--instead of just modifying dice rolls--other mechanics come into play. Some actions automatically place your foe after you in the initiative order or at the very end. Interrupts allow a character to skip ahead to pre-empt another character's stated action.

I am a quick-moving guy. I have scary fast reflexes. This affects my personal preference for game systems that favour such. It is also easier for me to envision--and design for--this type of combat schema. Mostly though, I really liked how Shadowrun handled initiative. I crudely hacked it into an act-now type of system and used it for my own purposes.

For what it's worth, everything I have read on the subject suggests that action is slower than reaction. That seems counterintuitive, but reflexes are faster than forebrain thought.

[kumakami]

feast of goblins (god will I ever finish) literally uses a Hot potato initiative system. The Guy running the game has veto power for avoiding power gaming, but who goes when is most random.


if you don't know the game hot potato basically when who ever acting is done they "throw" to anyone (gm included) that person acts next.

[Kinslayer]

That sounds very cooperative. I like it.

[Goober4473]

My current system uses a pretty standard initiative system. Roll once, determines turn order. Characters make defenses outside of their turns though, and it costs them actions on their turn. Going first in the first round means you're on the offensive first. If the tides turn, then being first no longer really matters.

I avoided rolling initiative every round since it takes a lot of extra time, and it defeats the back and forth, tennis match or fencing style of attacker/defender, where the defender gets to make an attack back if the defense is good enough, essentially gaining the serve.

Another system that did the back and forth kinda well was the old World of Darkness, but the system was extremely bulky, with initiative every round, and declaring actions in reverse order of initiative, followed by a resolution phase where everything happens at once. But without that declaration phase, such as with the Fading Suns system, I've run into problems where everyone waits to see what everyone else is doing before making a decision, or changes their mind after someone reacts to what they decided to do.

I'm also doing a very cinematic, scene-based style of system, and combat, arguments, political propaganda, etc. all work the same way, so I'm not too worried starting thing off with a roll, since it essentially means, "now something important is happening," not, "it's time for combat."

[Kinslayer]

I went with roll-every-turn (usually) for just the opposite reason: initiative matters in my system. It's not just turn order, but an important tactical consideration. And being on the defensive can really suck.

I have also ran into problems with the clunkiness of the various World of Darkness initiatives sub-systems. Declaring in reverse order rarely seems to work well for any troupe I have been in. I too have noticed that it tends to degenerate into one of two ways. Either everyone is excited about their action and wants to chuck dice as soon as you call their name in the declaration phase, or no one is willing to do anything first. This is most notable when it is pc vs. pc, so you don't have NPC's to shout, "This isn't Lucky Lager," and throw the first punch.

GM: "That's the end of Round Six, and this has become the worst parody of a samurai duel stare-down ever. Butterflies gently land on each of your swords. Are either of you going to do anything? *Sigh* Roll initiative... again."

*Clatter*Clatter*

PC1: "I wait."

PC2: "I wait."

[Thought]

Hmm, if your game ever feels like Samurai Staredown rather than Samurai Shodown, perhaps tying particular advantages to particular positions in the initiative order could help encourage players to willingly break that. First person gets to perform an extra action of some description ("bis dat qui cito dat"), last person gets a bonus to counter attacks ("abundans cautela non nocet"), and people in the middle might get get a little bonus to defense or some such ("virtus in media stat"). And if a carrot isn't enough, one can always add a stick.

[Kinslayer]

Midian mostly goes the 'carrot' route. By making declaration and resolution occur as part of the same phase on a given player's turn, quick-paced exiting play is encouraged. Higher initiative rolls result in extra actions, and waiting on a slower person just flushes those away. In addition, there are 'interrupts' which allow someone to skip ahead in initiative order, regardless of how slow they would otherwise be.

The 'stick' portion really only comes into play as a result of being on the defensive. Dodging an attack takes an action, which can easily mean that the defending character doesn't get to act otherwise this round--possibly even the next. Finally, getting hit (and taking damage) subtracts from all subsequent dice rolls that round and the next initiative contest. In other words, it is really in your best interests to get in the first shot.

[madunkieg]

I love initiative, but I've use it a bit differently than what is being discussed in this thread. The system in question had characters announce their attempted actions, each secretly playing a numbered card. When everyone had declared their action, everyone revealed their cards. The player with the highest card went first, describing one detail of the outcome, then the person with the second-highest card added a detail that would occur after the first, and so on down the line. You can't overrule what someone else already described, so if you played the lowest card, there's a good chance that you wouldn't be able to add the detail you wanted.

(just for curiosity's sake, the cards played were then shuffled into a pile and dealt back, so if you played a good card, you risked losing it and ending up with a not so good card, but if you played a lousy card, you might get a better one back)

So, that system used initiative as the action resolution system instead of skills an attributes. This shaped the game rather dramatically, pushing the emphasis off of character creation and onto playstyle in a way that most rpg players aren't into, but it does present a different way to think about initiative.