Guns and Games

[Chainsaw Aardvark]

Due to a discussion I've noticed in the "Games don't have to be Free" Thread, I though I'd open this to a full debate:

How do you think guns (or other weapons) should be detailed in games?

Personally, I'm one for more detail over less. We all know that the type of car you drive reflects your income and what you feel is important. According to Mark Twain "Clothes make the man. Naked people have had little affect on history". It stands that how you chose to defend yourself has a notable bearing on your thoughts.

A 150 dollar Makarov pistol bought from a Russian arsenal is not too accurate nor powerful, but it is a solid and reliable military pistol. On the other hand, a Korth revolver is hand made in Germany and will set you back $5000 - more of a show piece than anything else. Someone who goes into combat with a .357 revolver is looking for reliability, and probably thinks that if it takes more than 6 bullets, he is in over his head. 100 round drums of ammo means quite the opposite.

Saying he "he had a rifle" versus "It was a Heckler and Koch G-36 with delayed roller back action firing 5.56 SS-209 NATO standard ammunition" Indicates a vast difference of knowledge and experience.

In case you're wondering, I have no military experience, no FOID card, and the only guns I've handled are .22 rifles at a boy scout camp. But I like to read, and I'm a writer. As I said before, guns and knowledge thereof establish character.

Mechanically, I think there should be a few different damages possible for each class of weapon (rifles/pistols) to reflect calibers, and modifications like suppressors and chopped barrels. Range is a bit less of an issue, though accuracy and concealment ability should be considered. I am all for heroism in games, and don't mind characters being able to take two or three slugs before slowing down, unless of course they are actually chewing on the shotgun barrel.

[MachFront]

Again, I think generally detailed is best. Somewhere in the middle.

I have to say that as a gun enthusiast I'd LOVE to have a game with highly detailed firearms and firearms rules. But I think it's almost impossible. Well...it may be possible, but it would make the game unplayable.

Now I do agree that it would be, well, plain boring if every description and/or character sheet said simply "medium caliber pistol" or "Large caliber rifle" or what have you... But when it comes to the numbers in the rules I don't think it should be like that.

I guess what I would like to see would be a game where the type of guns were divided by type and then general caliber. But then that was described and examples were given.
The only real difference I can think of that would matter in game terms that is quantifiable is the ammo capacity of the firearms. I want what I've already described, but it would have to have a goodly list of examples and other factors, because while the Glock 22, 23 and 27 are all the very same caliber, they are different sizes and have different ammo capacities.

I just think that all the small (very small) differences in the same type and caliber of gun, while they make a load of difference in the real world and in those few centimeters and in those few milliseconds, are impossible to truely quantify in game terms to the extent that it would be a monumental task of rules and numbers.
Realisticly...honestly....it itself would/could take hundreds of pages. Really.

Now, I don't want too general either. That's the other danger, but I think if someone(s) want that I wouldn't think that they'd be "missing out" or anything. It all comes down to the person controlling the tool and THEIR skill. A quality tool helps, there is no doubt, but it cannot survive in a vaccuum.

For my part, if a game (in fact it's happened before to me) was very general in the firearms rules and/or was slightly specific but only had a small crss section of guns to choose from, I'd just fudge the closest one and give my character the gun I want and detail it, whether it makes an impact on the rules or no. And I do agree it can and does have an impact on the character's personality and on role-playing.

Wow. I meant this to be not so verbose. Woops.

[Sock Golem]

I used to play a game called Top Secret. It was a James Bond style spy game madness. It was fun to play for awhile, but we soon got sick of it.

Why? Gun combat was much more realistic than any other game I've ever played. It was completely non-heroic. It wasn't unusual to leave a mission in a stretcher, or dead. Instead of most fights being an: "Okay, we'll come out okay if we're careful" moment it was an "Oh shit, I hope I'm not the one who loses a leg" moment.

I like d20 modern myself. Is it completely unrealistic? Yes. Is it a hell of a lot of fun to play regardless? Yes and yes!

[MachFront]

In fact...

I think a little game known as Stray Bullet handles guns almost perfectly. Well, at least very, very well.
If only this game was in a pdf.

But I mention it here because it's a cool little rpg of the technothriller/espionage genre....and....it's free!!!

[Wolfboy]

Because I'm incredibly lazy and maths-averse, I like to keep things really simple where possible. Guns are no exception. The way I personally would handle your idea about lots of different weapon-specs would be to have guns deal damage pretty simply - my favourite system for this is Over The Edge where you just roll your gun-shooting-skilz and the gun provides a multiplier for the damage. I don't remember exactly what the multipliers were, but it would have been something like pistol x3, smg x4, rifle x5, explosives x6 to 9. Added complexity around different guns would come in as mechanics tied to their range, accuracy, rate of fire etc.

The advantage of this system is that (as well as minimizing maths for us slack-arses) it escalates damage really fast from one size of gun to the next, thus you could get shot a couple of times with a pistol and be OK(ish) but an assault rifle is gonna blow fist-sized holes out of wherever it hits you, and you're gonna really wish you hadn't been shot.

[Dyson Logos]

All of the above-

I love a really detailed gun system in the right game. Such as CyberPunk 2020 or Top Secret.

However, for some games it works better to just have guns do damage. Or even better, provide a 1 to 4 point bonus on your Force checks like in Lacuna Part 1.

[kumakami]

its a hard thing to quantify.... a Gun nut friend of mine put it best.... when you factor in the human body its hard to really judge. After all, people have died from small caliber shot to a non vital spot.....and then some people get shot multiply time with high calibers and still keep going!

I've always been a fan of Cyberpunk's methods.....having to roll for shock.

[Rob Lang]

[Wolfboy]

[kumakami]