Universal systems and the use thereof

[Chris Johnstone]

This is largely snipped from the Spellwoven forum. I'm having some thoughts and doubts about whether to create a system from the ground up or go with a (reasonably) better known free universal system as the core mechanics, like say Fudge.

I threw a post into the Spellwoven forum (cut and pasted below), but thought I'd address this more broadly here. A lot of people devise their own systems, often creating new systems for each game. Is this the best approach? Would we be better off nominating a good freebee universal system and working with that? After all, most universal systems *could* be reworked to suit most settings. Rules tweeks and add-ons could be used to make a system more suited to a given setting.

So why do people tend towards doing their own thing? It could even be argued that it's bad for the hobby to have everyone pulling in different directions all at once. What are your thoughts?


THE SPELLWOVEN POST: I had this conversation recently with some active gamers. I tried to explain that I was aiming for a gestalt that captured cinematic literature, magic and setting that weren't really covered well by any system that I was aware of. My own playing group back home in years gone by never used anything except homebrew games, so for me, devising a new system is just what you do, and learning a new system is part of playing a new game. However, I understand this isn't how most groups work, and I wasn't very convincing, I think, so ended up saying, "Well, I suppose I could just run the core mechanic with Fudge." This gathered a lot of blank stares.

"Or Risus? JAGS? The Window?" I suggested, the last a little desperately. I rattled off a couple more universal game systems that I thought were well known. None of the gamers, who'd be into the hobby since the 90s at least, 80s in some cases, were aware of the free universal games.

Eventually someone suggested I convert it to GURPS. I had to explain that GURPS was proprietary, and that SJ Games have a history of being pretty draconian about non-official adaptations.

This sort of left me wondering about the practical difference between scribbling up a new system and picking a pre-existing free universal system. I checked out John Kim's page here:

http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/free ... ersal.html

I hunted through the various links, but so far, the only thing that appeals would maybe be to work up the game as an adaptation of Fudge. However, I'd have to modify the system so heavily that I'm unsure if it'd be less work for me or for a person reading it. Hm.

Anyway, I guess my conclusion is that perhaps I am doing what everyone does, which is devise a system that addresses some particular issues that I'd like to see addressed. If people have preferences for something else though, I'm willing to think them over. So far, the following seem possible options:

Fudge/Fate:
http://www.fudgerpg.com/
http://www.faterpg.com/

Solar System: (has the disadvantage of being commercial)
http://www.arkenstonepublishing.net/solarsystem

JAGS:
http://www.jagsrpg.org/

RISUS
http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm

The Window (maybe... not quite what I'm after)
http://www.mimgames.com/

I do quite like the Adventure one-page RPG by Joe Pruitt, though it would also require a fair amount of over-haul to get it working in a more Tolkienesque setting.
http://www.1km1kt.net/rpg/adventure-rpg

John Kim has scribbled together some work on an Amber adaptation for Middle-Earth that fits the mode and feel that I'd like a lot more than most freebee universals out there. It could be an option to work with, though I'd have to contact John and ask permission.
http://home.mchsi.com/~philhall1969/amber-merp.htm

In the end though, I'm just not sure. I guess that I'm having fun trying to burrow down into a rules-light system that suits my ends and performs all the tricks I'd like it to perform. The other issue of course, is that if I were to decide to take the system to print on demand, it'd need to have an open license for that end. So I guess I'm flipping the question on it's head.

Given that most free universal RPG systems are only slightly less obscure than setting-specific free RPGs, what is the advantage of using one?

Any thoughts?

[NoobHealer]

I'm going to speak in terms of video game engines because it is more natural to me... but the idea's should still apply.

Using a Universal System is the same as a company using the Unreal Engine to make their games. It gives you a fully functional engine that has been prebuilt, functions, speeds up your development, and finally reduces the amount of play testing to fix things that don't work. People have already found most of the major issues that come from using the system which means you won't have many surprises in late dev when you realize the combat mechanics don't actually work.

It has the added benefit that you won't need to teach people who already know the original system. If you've played one FPS, you'll be able to pick up and play despite the new setting. The mechanics work the same whether you are a space marine, or a cowboy. The same goes with universal systems such as D20 or Risus. If you've played another game using the engine, you can pick up and play fairly quickly.

As for the negatives... oftentimes game engines are used to create cookie cutter experiences. Everything play's the same. Nothing stands out. Game's no longer scratch different itches... they are all carbon copies of whatever was the last best thing.

For Developers, creating your own mechanics is a part of expressing your work and making it your own. You can tailor it to feel the way that you want it to play. You add a level of character that separates your game from the hundreds of others.

I personally hate premade engines. I consider them the bane of progress. I despise them... they sicken me... leading to a billion of the same mediocre game... Yadayada... lazy development... blah blah.

But honestly, they have a place. If you find a system that actually fit's what you want for the game, use it. It will save time and effort. It'll ensure that you are using a system that has been proven functional and well recieved. That is not a bad thing, so long as you are not just duct taping a mask on the original.

[Chainsaw Aardvark]

Noobhealer hit the problem pretty head on. As the old saying goes, jack of all trades - master of none.

Frankly you can fight a zombie in any RPG you so chose. However, specific rules determine if they're unimportant "mooks" (Like extras in a movie) you wipe out twenty at a time with one die roll and then describe the results, or if only seeing one dead - yet walking - human being takes a toll on your sanity.

FUDGE is good if numbers don't really apply or are unavailable. If its a pulp space game without much attention to hard science, then being a great pilot and a fair swordsman is OK, but if you want Delta-V calculations, not so much. Similarly, governments are loathe to declassify acoustic recordings of their submarines, so we don't have hard numbers to say if a Victor-III SSN is quieter than a Vanguard SSBN but FUDGE can handle "It has good sound proofing, but poor speed and only fair sensors". Personally, I don't really use Fudge though I find it an intriguing idea. It gets a little difficult when you compare separate scales of things (ie a weak giant robot versus a strong rabbit.)

Generally, making your own system mean you can be sure the rules tell your story. If you want dark-age heroes, have a corruption stat, if the good guys always win in the end, there can be a rules that gives them a bonus to escaping death traps, and a dictate that bystanders are never actually killed, regardless of how big the space ship above the city was before it exploded.

From a more personal point of reference, its a point of pride to make the rules on your own, getting them to work right, solving bugs, and going the extra mile to make them understandable and easy to read, rather then just a technical outline. I wouldn't take as much joy in my games if they used anther's design.

If you can give me a few plot outlines of what you want to happen in the game, I'll gladly suggest mechanics that might help get the tone correct.

[Onix]

Reality Refracted had a post about how rules affect the story, the example is Missile Command but it's a good example because the game has very little story outside of the mechanics. Most times the emphasis is on rules lite, focusing on story but as brought out by the post, rules can help tell the story.

Pipe Dream Alert!
The trick is having a universal system that is modular enough so that the game designer could drop in modules that are well tested and do a specific bit of story telling. In short a customizable universal system. Most of the rules are standard, but certain rules have been modified. The game could have all the rules stated and highlight any modified rules or only publish the modified rules for a quick game. Any modified rules would also be open source and would become part of an optional library, kind of like a wiki with people stating where there are problems and possibly how to fix them. Modules would also have the core goal of the module stated (such as "Better swordplay mechanics").

Does anything out there do that?

[Chainsaw Aardvark]

In theory, GURPS is that universal system with modules for everything - from hard science to giant robot anime. Of course, it gets rather over-complicated system since everything needs to have numbers assigned to it. If you need a rule for every occasion, then you're going to have a lot of rules!

JAGS is (IMHO) an answer to a question no one was really asking. It attempts to recreate GURPS, but a perfect bell curve (4d6-4 for 0-20) and attribute costs calculated out to several decimal places to avoid unseen point breaks and exploits. Of course, if the GM was really that worried about the latter, s/he could just watch the players make characters and veto anything that gets out of hand. The combat system is rather interesting, it does succeed in its goals, and you would be very remiss if you didn't read the "Book of Knots" adventures in wonderland setting but its a bit too much math for me.

Risis is amusing, but I prefer games with a bit more crunch to them. Games can slow down from having to stop and look up rules, but having to stop and debate a house rule or improvise can be just as bad. Its a bit like a claw hammer - you can drive nails, pry up boards, chip concrete if your patient - but not so much for fine work.

The Window is pretty good, aside from the somewhat counter-intuitive nature of roll under/low systems. It tracks individual skills/attributes (unlike broad ranging and few in number risus cliches) though the main focus is on its GM advice about how to run a game. I also happen to like the other games from this site - Exiles and Children of Fire.

I'd need to look through my collection again before giving opinions on Pinion, the Too Much Coffee Role-playing System, or any of a few dozen other universal systems I've happened across.

[Onix]

Unfortunately Gurps is proprietary. so nobody here can use it. Also, Gurps is a book by itself. My thought is, what about a system repository that you or anyone else can draw from, put into a setting and then run with it where you want to?

The ideal system, from what I read here and other places, is a simple event resolution mechanic, very low math with enough specific rules to handle individual situations. It would also have to near infinitely scale up or down (tall order) to be truly universal.

[Chainsaw Aardvark]

[Onix]

I'd leave settings to the individual games, the idea is to have a framework to build a story on.

At first blush Fuzion sounds like it could be what I'm thinking about but not completely open. I'll look into it. I'm just thinking of the philanthropy part of 1KM1KT and playing with that to the nth degree. Like a Linux framework for RPGs not real useful to the average joe but somebody could turn it into Ubuntu, if you really want to get under the hood, you could make Mac OSX out of it. The system is more like a very detailed set of guidelines to make sure things still work when you're done tweaking.

I like percentile systems too, but plenty of people like a d6 system. It would take a lot, but it be possible to make a meta system that could use either. Of course other dice could be used also if someone set up the scaling for them. The concept might go something like this. . . The people that start this project make an event resolution system that uses a percentile die and numbers based on percentiles. Someone who likes d6 scales the numbers down so they work with a d6 (or several d6s). In the end there would have to be a node where the numbers all end up the same so that the event resolution system would tie into other modules that are designed for the system.

Hero Point mechanics would be an add on but would have to be considered while setting up the core event resolution mechanic.

Multiple XP schedules and leveling (if desired) could be used since they don't normally directly tie into play. Although how they tie into the event resolution system would have to be worked out. I realize the idea is already getting a little lumpy.

Other system "tricks" would be separate like how to figure damage from two cars crashing together. You don't need that if there aren't cars in your game.

The trick is identifying where the nodes are. The points where the different modules need to connect together.

[Chainsaw Aardvark]

[Onix]