Learning for next time

[Eggo von Eggo]

[matthijs]

I know what you mean; I also need feedback to design good stuff. (I bumped my own thread when nobody commented on it, and got some excellent stuff to work with).

Here's the reasons, in approximate order, why I, personally, didn't comment on your thread.

- Limited resources (time, attention, concentration).
- Subject line didn't immediately grab me. Pachak Nunas doesn't mean anything to me, and 100 Ghosts was so generic that to me it could've meant anything.
- Something about your first post gave a very finished impression. It seemed like this game was going to be written no matter what. You had intro text, headers, disclaimer...
- Later, you seemed to be getting along quite well. At one point, I actually went through all the entries to see which one had the fewest comments. I posted to one or two of those, and bumped my own.

I think it's simple tabloid stuff. If the subject line isn't 1) somehow shocking or 2) about something most of the target audience finds interesting, chances are the post won't be read. Then, there has to be just enough info: Not so little that people will think "hey, it's just a sketch, this game'll never be finished", nor so much that they'll go "uh, I think I'll read that later".

So I don't think there's anything wrong with your design. It's more a matter of grabbing attention. A longer and more detailed subject line can often work - if you'd called it "The ghosts tell the warriors what to do", which would be a really crap title, I'd still be much more likely to read it.

[Tobias]

I'm generally with matthijs, but I'll list 'em anyway.

1. Time. Work is where my internet is - I did most of my design on the daily commute and one evening at home (where I have no internet).
2. Pachak Nunas looked like it was coming along well along it's own steam - you produced nice realms of text. Perhaps shorter bits, with more pointed questions, would have worked better?
3. 'grip' of the content: it looked like some kind of 'avenging spirit' RPG with a a nice detailed authentic (at least in the proper names tossed about) focus(from first glance). if that was true, it would've been a fairly common type of play - I might've gotten some nice flavor from it, but I would've waited for the whole text and gotten to see it - including it's art and layout - which I thought would be important.
4. Number of posts - I think 9 in the thread? Didn't seem like a thread that was getting no reponse - nor was a question asked in the subject line of the thread.

5. general post-happiness. I think there were only a few game that drew a larger number of responses. My own drew very little. This made me less inclined to post in other threads. (Although successfull threads do have a bigger drawing power than small ones.)

[JenniferS]

I also got almost no feedback. One guy commented about something that was misunderstood, I fixed it and that was it. However, I did notice how many people clicked on my thread. So, I shrugged and figured people were busy but at least they had little criticism.

I never even got onto this forum until twelve hours before I posted my game idea. My computer is in the dining room of a house of six people, one of which being a spawn of mine. I did a lot of my work outside the house, sitting under a store canopy in the rain at midnight, because it was quieter than being at my own home.

[Eggo von Eggo]

JenniferS -- in keeping with my groundrules (honest, brutal, etc), your post doesn't help me at all. I know that feedback was scarce. I'm not looking for consolation or "hey feedback doesn't matter", but useful info for how to tackle the problem (lack of feedback) as I see it.

Matthijs & Tobias --
Catchier thread title. Absolutely. It always bugged me, and that's why I changed it to something that was at least in English. This sort of feedback should be expected from the guy who wrote "Charles the Bald..."

Regarding bumping my own stuff (and the 9 posts in the thread), that's what I was doing. Maybe my schedule just didn't mesh with others' -- I'd bump it and in no time, it would be back down at the bottom. Of those 9 posts, 6 were written by me -- and one of the 3 remaining was actual feedback.

And, if subject material (oh look. another "something bad happened and now the PCs are looking for vengeance" game) contributed to the lack of interest, there isn't much I can do about the subject matter itself (it's the game I wanted to write. no offense to others, but I just don't care about what happened at this and that dinner party -- that's a specific example -- but I can't very well design a game that has no appeal to me. So, the question becomes "what should I have done to make my somewhat basic adventure game material more appealing at first glance?"

Emphasize the unusual mechanics (ghost on the shoulder?) as opposed to the setting (and setup), and slip that in afterwards?

Thanks again everyone.

[Tobias]

I can only tell you what would've worked for me - but by all means, make your own game with your preferred subject matter! Death and revenge and Incan Hate Gods to Spanish Dinner Parties!

(Sorry Doug).

I know about your bumpage (now.) Still, the bump-posts didn't ask a question or pose a problem - they were lines of prose. Less likely to draw comment.

What I would like to see is *why* your revenge game is better than, say, GURPS. Is it the stunning art (which isn't a competition criterion, but screw the competition criterions)? Is it the painstaking research on native culture? Is it the sticky blood running from my clawlike hands as I hold a conquistador's beating heart? Is it the incredibly cool mechanic I overlooked?

Be proud of what your think is cool, hype it up. 80% will hate it - no matter, the others will be drawn in.

[kenjib]

I thought your idea was great and I posted a question. However, after you answered I forgot that I had commented on that thread and didn't follow up. I'm sorry about that. It really was a time problem for me. I was barely able to find time to get my entry done but did try to comment on threads as I could. I also don't feel confident enough about my design skills to give advice to other people who are all more proficient than I.

[Harlequin]

In keeping with the problems of trying to express it all in one title... I think that next year we should do a "post-vomitorium" thread with similar concept. (Assuming we don't do everything in one big chaotic thread, which is honestly pretty cool.) A "Here's what has me jazzed about my game - come comment" thread. (The interviewer sorta did that, but it was undirected.)

That would give you a place to mention what "Pachak Nunas" means, for instance.

Might help.

- Eric

[matthijs]

[Doug Ruff]

In line with the "brutal, honest" groundrules, here's some advice:

- Firstly, and this is the really brutal bit: although feedback is nice (and at a certain point in the design process, it's essential), the main person you should be designing for is you. Yes, I thought your game notes were awesome; yes, I wish I'd had time to give you (and others) proper feedback (beyond "this looks awesome") but I think that "lack of feedback" is a poor reason to stop working on a project after only one week. (Like I said, brutal. I hope you'll read this in the "tough love" spirit I'm writing it in.)

- How much feedback did you give? Not counting posts to "Sideline Interviewer" and the other "non-design" threads, how many posts did you make to other people's threads? This isn't a dig at Darcy; most people didn't have (or make) time to comment widely, with the result that very few people got feedback. I hope very much that this changes next year with the addition of (unofficial) feedback ninjas.

- There are several other forums for game design (to name two of the largest, the Forge and RPG.net) which are full of people who are willing to look over your latest RPG design and offer helpful feedback (especially if you follow some the advice below.) Many of these people weren't taking part in the contest and may have had more time to answer your questions.

- If you're serious about getting feedback on your game design, then ask specific questions. Note that I didn't follow this advice very well with my own Dinner Party threads, so I am a filthy hypocrite. "What do you think about my game?" isn't a specific question, and doesn't get useful responses. "I want my game to achieve [specific goal] - does it do that?" is a much better question.

- Just an idea: find someone else who isn't getting much feedback, especially if you like what they are working on. Ask them if they're interested in being your feedback buddy, and make sure you give them feedback too. IMO, this isn't breaking any rules.

Is this helping any? I'm trying to give constructive (but harsh) advice. Have I succeeded?